P.S. I have been trying to connect with your friends list by sending you an invitation through BCUK. It doesn't seem to like the way I type in your site name at blog.co.uk!!
Would you mind trying to send me an invitation at www.myword at BCUK.
First, I must congratulate you on keeping my avid attention to your analysis. I like your comparative analysis on the Christian faiths. The following activity is, if you like, a mix of anecdote and qualitative observation. I am not a researcher.
As you say, much of what you write would apply to other faith groups a more…
A really fascinating analysis and an interesting use of my church growth models. Well done! There is so much I could respond to here I will restrict myself to what I think is your major claim which is to challenge the common assertion that theologically conservative churches grow whereas liberal ones decline.
First of all, I don't assume that there are simply gays and straights. I don't often tend to discuss bisexual people (I say a small amount in the comments to this post), or those who would consider themselves asexual etc, because for the more…
Enns' book sounds very interesting - if I didn't have a long list of books I *have* to read in the next year, I'd liked to have had a look at it. I think that ancient (and medieval) writers do sometimes use and cite Bible texts in a different way from us, just as they come to those texts with different initial assumptions. And the language point yo more…
This discussion of scriptural authority ties in with a book I am currently reading: Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament, by Peter Enns. Enns is opening my eyes to an understanding of ancient cultures and how a texts were interpreted by the audience of that day — and not always literally. As Enns explains ( more…
Not sure if worth erading according to your standards :)
There are contemporany sources, (ie: Vita Geraldi) that specifically links depopulation with sarracen slave trade. Some modern authors, from my bibliography:
Poly, Jean-Pierre : 1976 : "La Provence et la société féodale 879-1166 : contribution à l'étude des structure more…
I must talk this one over with a friend of mine who has been a spiritual director and is deeply versed in the monastics. Should be an interesting discussion. more…
I wasn't suggesting for a second that Wickham is uninterested in long-distance or regional exchange or trade. He is, and we all should be. I was saying that his view is that small scale movement of luxuries (whether papyrus, pepper or people) has little to do with "economic history" in this period.
It's an idea that goes very much against modern views of democratizing knowledge and making it available to all. Any deliberate focus on making a work of art or a text obscure (such as modernist literature) is exclusionary: not everybody will "get" it. The counterargument is that by focusing on difficult language (or by using visual references that more…
"Unmarriages" is one of the many, many books I have on my list to read when I have more time: it sounds very interesting. I think a lot of "traditional" views on marriage ignore just how ambiguous the first Christians were towards the family (as well as the frustrating Christian spokesmen who just flat out pretend that indissoluble monogamous marri more…
I'd be interested in hearing about the sources for depopulation in Provence. One of the things I'm realising needs to be included in any discussion of the early medieval economy is population trends, but a lot is still being based on outdated views on this. Can you recommend anything worth erading on the topic? more…
Chris has more to say about the importance of regional exchange as against long-distance trade in a later article: Wickham, Chris. 2008. "Rethinking the structure of the early medieval economy". In The long morning of medieval Europe: new directions in early medieval studies, edited by Jennifer R. Davis and Michael McCormick, 19-32. Aldersho more…
I'm fascinated by the thought that knowledge should not always be explained to make it more accessible - there is a case to be made out for it being difficult. I'll have to ponder that one. more…
Jinty didn't discuss later ceremonies in this talk, because she was focused on Pippin. The best place to start for her detailed views would probably be Janet L. Nelson, "The Lord's anointed and the people's choice: Carolingian royal ritual", in Rituals of royalty: power and ceremonial in traditional societies, edited by David Cannadine and S more…
Very interesting post. At the moment I'm reading Ruth Mazo Karras's Unmarriages: Women, Men and Sexual Union in the Middle Ages and I've also been struck more than ever about how so many 'traditional' arguments about what does and doesn't constitute marriage are not actually traditional at all. more…
I am glad to hear that The Making of Charlemagne's Europe project is also building a prosopographic database of individuals!
On the slave trade scale: there's also evidence of depopulation in C10th Provence, so that was probably not small bussiness; but slave trade commerce, by his very nature, cannot be a stable market, so it's an evo more…
Even if we accept all the calculations that it takes to get there, I just don't see 2.7 sunburnt northern Europeans arriving in Baghdad each day as a driver for European-wide economic growth.
Buried in a footnote in Wickham's _Framing_ is a comment that people who look at the shipment on a small scale of luxury goods are just not doing more…
Thanks for all your comments. A few individual replies:
Gilly – there's a long antique tradition of identifying yourself with a city, especially in the Greek-speaking part of the Roman empire. This goes back, I assume, right to the city states of the seventh and sixth-century BC. I think we tend to underestimate it in Britain (well, I more…
Did Jinty gave some clue about why Charlemagne and Louis did not seek annointing legitimation? If my memory does serves me, I recall his emphasis on Charles the Bald as being the first to re-use annointing after Pipin, but that was a century later... Not a small topic on the logic of royal sacred legitimation. more…
I've just read the profile of her in the New Yorker, which is very interesting. Especially, when she's talking about the tensions between the unconscious and the card index: the novelist's imagination and historical facts as they are recorded. That more…
She must be working on a pretty interesting dissertation on ethnicity. At Kalamazoo she gave a paper on the post-Arab Conquest survival of Gothic identifiers in Iberian sources. Interesting argument re Gregory. I'd have to see the evidence for that to decide if I'm persuaded. I don't buy the argument that there weren't any Gallo-Romans left. He's p more…
She claims to be ambiguous about Cromwell, and I think she succeeds. She's very clear about the difference between her own approach and that of a historian. more…
Sorry for delay in replying: I haven't read Hilary Mantell myself, but there have been some discussions of Wolf Hall by History Today (here and hermore…
Might this have anything to do with the original Roman concept of being a freeman of a city - hence you were called by that city eg 'Paul of Tarsus' ? more…
Recent comments (30)
In response to: "Church growth, negative evangelism and beta churches" 17 days old
by menhir [Member]
P.S. I have been trying to connect with your friends list by sending you an invitation through BCUK. It doesn't seem to like the way I type in your site name at blog.co.uk!!
Would you mind trying to send me an invitation at www.myword at BCUK.
Thanks :) more…
In response to: "Church growth, negative evangelism and beta churches" 17 days old
by menhir [Member]
PPS. Finally got the invitation system to work. :yes:
more…
In response to: "Church growth, negative evangelism and beta churches" 17 days old
by menhir [Member]
Hi,
First, I must congratulate you on keeping my avid attention to your analysis. I like your comparative analysis on the Christian faiths. The following activity is, if you like, a mix of anecdote and qualitative observation. I am not a researcher.
As you say, much of what you write would apply to other faith groups a more…
In response to: "Church growth, negative evangelism and beta churches" 20 days old
by John Hayward [Visitor]
A really fascinating analysis and an interesting use of my church growth models. Well done! There is so much I could respond to here I will restrict myself to what I think is your major claim which is to challenge the common assertion that theologically conservative churches grow whereas liberal ones decline.
This assertion is more…
In response to: "Nicky Gumbel, evangelicals and homosexuality" 57 days old
by magistra [Member]
First of all, I don't assume that there are simply gays and straights. I don't often tend to discuss bisexual people (I say a small amount in the comments to this post), or those who would consider themselves asexual etc, because for the more…
In response to: "Nicky Gumbel, evangelicals and homosexuality" 57 days old
by magistra [Member]
Enns' book sounds very interesting - if I didn't have a long list of books I *have* to read in the next year, I'd liked to have had a look at it. I think that ancient (and medieval) writers do sometimes use and cite Bible texts in a different way from us, just as they come to those texts with different initial assumptions. And the language point yo more…
In response to: "Nicky Gumbel, evangelicals and homosexuality" 59 days old
by tony carr [Visitor]
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I think you make three false assumptions: I would like to comment only on the third, for brevity.
(1) You assume that humans consist of two types, "gays" and "straights".
Hollywood supports this, the evidence doesn't.
(2) You assume that a life without sex is unhappy more…
In response to: "Nicky Gumbel, evangelicals and homosexuality" 60 days old
by AnnCarol [Member]
This discussion of scriptural authority ties in with a book I am currently reading: Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament, by Peter Enns. Enns is opening my eyes to an understanding of ancient cultures and how a texts were interpreted by the audience of that day — and not always literally. As Enns explains ( more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 79 days old
by Joan Vilaseca [Visitor]
Not sure if worth erading according to your standards :)
There are contemporany sources, (ie: Vita Geraldi) that specifically links depopulation with sarracen slave trade. Some modern authors, from my bibliography:
Poly, Jean-Pierre : 1976 : "La Provence et la société féodale 879-1166 : contribution à l'étude des structure more…
In response to: "Humiliation and obscurity" 79 days old
by gillyk [Member]
I must talk this one over with a friend of mine who has been a spiritual director and is deeply versed in the monastics. Should be an interesting discussion. more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 79 days old
by Mark H [Visitor]
I wasn't suggesting for a second that Wickham is uninterested in long-distance or regional exchange or trade. He is, and we all should be. I was saying that his view is that small scale movement of luxuries (whether papyrus, pepper or people) has little to do with "economic history" in this period.
In many ways it is similar to Peter B more…
In response to: "Humiliation and obscurity" 79 days old
by magistra [Member]
It's an idea that goes very much against modern views of democratizing knowledge and making it available to all. Any deliberate focus on making a work of art or a text obscure (such as modernist literature) is exclusionary: not everybody will "get" it. The counterargument is that by focusing on difficult language (or by using visual references that more…
In response to: "Late antique Christianity and equal marriage" 80 days old
by magistra [Member]
"Unmarriages" is one of the many, many books I have on my list to read when I have more time: it sounds very interesting. I think a lot of "traditional" views on marriage ignore just how ambiguous the first Christians were towards the family (as well as the frustrating Christian spokesmen who just flat out pretend that indissoluble monogamous marri more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 80 days old
by magistra [Member]
I'd be interested in hearing about the sources for depopulation in Provence. One of the things I'm realising needs to be included in any discussion of the early medieval economy is population trends, but a lot is still being based on outdated views on this. Can you recommend anything worth erading on the topic? more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 80 days old
by magistra [Member]
Chris has more to say about the importance of regional exchange as against long-distance trade in a later article: Wickham, Chris. 2008. "Rethinking the structure of the early medieval economy". In The long morning of medieval Europe: new directions in early medieval studies, edited by Jennifer R. Davis and Michael McCormick, 19-32. Aldersho more…
In response to: "Can men control their lust?" 84 days old
by littlelisa [Member]
I think that men are born due to evolution with strong sexual desires but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions.
lisa more…
In response to: "Humiliation and obscurity" 84 days old
by gillyk [Member]
I'm fascinated by the thought that knowledge should not always be explained to make it more accessible - there is a case to be made out for it being difficult. I'll have to ponder that one. more…
In response to: "Early medieval comparisons: kings east and west" 84 days old
by magistra [Member]
Jinty didn't discuss later ceremonies in this talk, because she was focused on Pippin. The best place to start for her detailed views would probably be Janet L. Nelson, "The Lord's anointed and the people's choice: Carolingian royal ritual", in Rituals of royalty: power and ceremonial in traditional societies, edited by David Cannadine and S more…
In response to: "Late antique Christianity and equal marriage" 87 days old
by Matthew Mesley [Visitor]
Very interesting post. At the moment I'm reading Ruth Mazo Karras's Unmarriages: Women, Men and Sexual Union in the Middle Ages and I've also been struck more than ever about how so many 'traditional' arguments about what does and doesn't constitute marriage are not actually traditional at all. more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 90 days old
by Joan Vilaseca [Visitor]
I am glad to hear that The Making of Charlemagne's Europe project is also building a prosopographic database of individuals!
On the slave trade scale: there's also evidence of depopulation in C10th Provence, so that was probably not small bussiness; but slave trade commerce, by his very nature, cannot be a stable market, so it's an evo more…
In response to: "Slavery and early medieval economic growth" 90 days old
by Mark H [Visitor]
Even if we accept all the calculations that it takes to get there, I just don't see 2.7 sunburnt northern Europeans arriving in Baghdad each day as a driver for European-wide economic growth.
Buried in a footnote in Wickham's _Framing_ is a comment that people who look at the shipment on a small scale of luxury goods are just not doing more…
In response to: "Civic identity and the B-word in sixth-century Francia" 92 days old
by magistra [Member]
Thanks for all your comments. A few individual replies:
Gilly – there's a long antique tradition of identifying yourself with a city, especially in the Greek-speaking part of the Roman empire. This goes back, I assume, right to the city states of the seventh and sixth-century BC. I think we tend to underestimate it in Britain (well, I more…
In response to: "Early medieval comparisons: kings east and west" 92 days old
by Joan Vilaseca [Visitor]
Did Jinty gave some clue about why Charlemagne and Louis did not seek annointing legitimation? If my memory does serves me, I recall his emphasis on Charles the Bald as being the first to re-use annointing after Pipin, but that was a century later... Not a small topic on the logic of royal sacred legitimation. more…
In response to: "Why I no longer read historical fiction" 94 days old
by magistra [Member]
I've just read the profile of her in the New Yorker, which is very interesting. Especially, when she's talking about the tensions between the unconscious and the card index: the novelist's imagination and historical facts as they are recorded. That more…
In response to: "Civic identity and the B-word in sixth-century Francia" 94 days old
by Curt Emanuel [Visitor]
She must be working on a pretty interesting dissertation on ethnicity. At Kalamazoo she gave a paper on the post-Arab Conquest survival of Gothic identifiers in Iberian sources. Interesting argument re Gregory. I'd have to see the evidence for that to decide if I'm persuaded. I don't buy the argument that there weren't any Gallo-Romans left. He's p more…
In response to: "Why I no longer read historical fiction" 95 days old
by gillyk [Member]
She claims to be ambiguous about Cromwell, and I think she succeeds. She's very clear about the difference between her own approach and that of a historian. more…
In response to: "Sex, historians and assumptions" 97 days old
by littlelisa [Member]
It's interesting how our culture has been so influenced by sex and sexuality.
lisa more…
In response to: "Civic identity and the B-word in sixth-century Francia" 98 days old
by Richard Landes [Visitor]
of course the b*rb*r**ns had double the wergeld of the romans. more…
In response to: "Why I no longer read historical fiction" 98 days old
by magistra [Member]
Sorry for delay in replying: I haven't read Hilary Mantell myself, but there have been some discussions of Wolf Hall by History Today (here and her more…
In response to: "Civic identity and the B-word in sixth-century Francia" 98 days old
by gillyk [Member]
Might this have anything to do with the original Roman concept of being a freeman of a city - hence you were called by that city eg 'Paul of Tarsus' ? more…